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Is this Brazilian? If not, then what?
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Author:  Dennis E. [ Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:52 am ]
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Well, here's my latest restoration project: an oldie but goodie no-name parlor. I explored the interior with a light and mirror. There are no markings anywhere inside or outside. It's a 24?-inch scale 12-fretter. The body measures 18? inches long and 12? inches wide across the lower bout.

(Click here for more pix)

Judging from interior/exterior grain lines it appears to be all solid woods. It's ladder braced and built unbelievably light. I think the top is two-piece bookmatched spruce. I'm not sure about the back and sides. Rosewood, I think, Brazilian, I hope. At first I thought it was a one-piece back, but I'm not not so sure but what it's two similar pieces not bookmatched. It has a heel cover matching the back. The finish is definitely French Polish.

It has some old, repaired cracks in the back one side. Looks like they were repaired using HHG a very long time ago. Don't know what the neck is, mahogany by the look of it.

My proposed restoration will consist of replacing the missing binding and purfling on one side of the lower bout. The top is loose there, too, so I'll wick in a little CA to secure it. Beyond that I think I'll just refurbish the French polish on the back and sides and leave the neck and wrinkled headstock finish as-is. Hey. I've got some wrinkles, too.

I don't think it's going to need a neck reset, although I'll string it up before doing any refinishing just to make sure.

Two questions for our cognoscenti:

1.) Anybody have any ideas about when this might have been made? And,

2.) Are these Brazilian back and sides, or what?

Any info or suggestions will be appreciated.


Author:  John How [ Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:11 am ]
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This little bit of wood on the side under the binding looks an awful lot like mahogany. It appears to be one of the many   early 1900 or late 1800 makers similar to the Oscar Schmidts or Lyon-Healy. Lots of these guitars were built of mahogany and stained very dark to simulate rosewood of course they were also built of many other woods as well and probably some were in fact rosewood but that sure looks like mahogany unber the binding edge there. I'll post your page on some other forums and see if anyone recognizes it.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:13 am ]
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I think it is Indian Rosewood if judging by color but I do have to admit that there is some nice spider webbing, especially on the sides.


OWWWWWWW nice catch on the binding ledge John

A close up throught the sound hole would tell a tale I bet. MichaelP39058.6790856481
Author:  Don Williams [ Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:18 am ]
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Yep...it's Brazilian alright. No doubt in my mind.
Author:  peterm [ Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:20 am ]
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I would say it could be Madagascar Rosewood or BRW

Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:25 am ]
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Zoomed in and increased ppi it almost looks like the sides are laminated veneer. This would be easy to tell in person.MichaelP39058.685474537
Author:  LanceK [ Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:30 am ]
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Oo Oo!!! BRW Lam over Mahogany!
Author:  Don Williams [ Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:53 am ]
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That could be. Have you looked inside to see if that appears to be the case? It looks more like you're looking at the finish to me.

Dennis, just one thing. IF that no-name guitar turns out to be a rare and valuable instrument, some of your repairs can seriously hurt it's value, specifically anything done to the finish. Cracks and the like must be done, and reproducing a section of purfling and binding is necessary, but be wary of what touching the finish can do to an antique and valuable instrument.

Just food for thought my friend!
Author:  John How [ Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:06 am ]
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[QUOTE=Don Williams]
Dennis, just one thing. IF that no-name guitar turns out to be a rare and valuable instrument, some of your repairs can seriously hurt it's value, specifically anything done to the finish. Cracks and the like must be done, and reproducing a section of purfling and binding is necessary, but be wary of what touching the finish can do to an antique and valuable instrument.
ust food for thought my friend![/QUOTE]

Most definately

I think it's mahogany that has been stained and you looking at the very fine edge of that stain/finish. If it were a veneer, it would be much more obvious than it is. It probably doesn't have much finish on it but I wouldn't change a thing as far as the finish goes. Just fix what's wrong and leave the finish as is.
Author:  Terry Stowell [ Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:13 am ]
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Is this a Larson Bros model?
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:23 am ]
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Closer I possess it the more I think it is a laminate just because the dark edge line is so consistently thick. But John could very well be right. Anyway I agree the base wood if not all of the back and side wood is Mahogany
Author:  Colin S [ Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:24 am ]
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Yes looks like mahogany with a stain, as John said. The golden rule with the restoration of historic objects, be they instruments or not, is that the restoration should be reversible by future restorers, and where possible should not affect the existing material of the object. I have done a number of restorations on 2-300 year old lutes and guitars now for the RCM and RAM museums, future luthiers should be able to look at the instrument and tell which parts have been restored, so that with future skills and technologies they can be reversed and improved without causing further damage to the original.

Nice guitar though!

Colin
Author:  John How [ Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:29 am ]
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Dennis, one of my very knowledgable musical friends is asking me, these questions.....
Are the frets brass? Is the nut wooden wooden?
I don't know what these questions might mean but.....
Author:  Serge Poirier [ Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:36 am ]
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I agree with Don and Colin, this little jewel might be worth a fortune if the finish stays original, i would definitely search for origins also.
Author:  TonyKarol [ Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:58 am ]
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Mahogany wiht a stain .. I dont think so, unless the guy who stained it drew in all the grain lines to make it look like braz, and completely obscure the mahogany lines. interlock... otherwise its without a doubt the best looking stained piece of mahogany I have ever seen.

My guess is its thin veneer over something ..
Author:  TRein [ Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:08 am ]
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Looks like faux BRW to me. I have seen lots of woodwork in old houses here in St. Louis that appear to be fine old BRW. The painters who achieved these looks were true artisans. They used a graining tool that scraped on a darker color glaze over a reddish-brown basecoat. By rotating the graining tool as it is scraped over the surface, wood grain could be very convincingly applied.
The neck on this guitar seems rather crude by 19th C. standards, and the guitar was fitted with a cheap tailpiece rather than a glued-on, pinned bridge, which also leads me to think some paint magic is at work here. Plus, judging by the photos, the effect is 2 dimensional, not with the depth you see with real BRW.
TRein39058.7583680556
Author:  Frank Ford [ Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:27 am ]
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Faux wood graining - you bet! These things are far more common and
better done than most folks would expect. We see really good faux Brazilian
wood grain painted on mahogany, birch, or whatever.

Value? Sorry. . .
Author:  Don Williams [ Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:31 am ]
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Well, it's a pretty fine example of a faux finish if ever I've seen one. I would have to agree, especially after hearing Thomas and Frank chime in. I was leaning toward a very thin veneer, but it seems unlikely. Besides, Frank's word is practically the Golden Rule in my book.


Interesting that they took the opportunity to grain it both inside and out.
Does the inside grain match the outside?
Author:  Dennis E. [ Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:35 pm ]
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Well, I figured it for "then what?" when I bought it. I didn't buy it with the expectation that it had any economic value — I bought it as old Ralph Kovel always says, 'cause I loved it!

I think Frank is right. (I'm with you, Don.) The inside is very oxidized so you can barely see grain lines. A couple of lines that I thought matched up to the outside lines don't, when they are measured with something better than my uncalibrated eyeball. But the real clincher is the closeup view of a largish scrape on the back, where it appears that the grain goes away with the finish!

John asked about the frets and nut, the nut is AWOL, and the frets are brass. They are not bar frets, but they are smaller and have a much flatter profile than modern frets. This thing has a FB width of 1-7/8ths at the nut. Braces are tucked under very thin kerfing.

Everything seems solid except the area of damaged binding. I'm really itchy to play it. I plan to measure it all out and draw it up just for reference.

I'd still like to figure out a way to tame down those scratches on the back, but now I'm wondering whether attempting to touch up the French polish would mess up the faux finish under it.

I really appreciate the feedback from everybody on this.

For those of you who like to look at close up views (and have the bandwidth for hi rez) here are links to a couple of close views of the binding and the tell-tale scrape.

The Tell-tale Scrape

Binding and edge of side
Author:  old man [ Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:02 pm ]
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I think it is paint, too. Also, to me, the top looks like pine.

Ron
Author:  Kim [ Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:10 pm ]
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Yep, the scrape closeup clearly shows the dark painted grain lines have deteriorated leaving only what appears to be the mahogany sub straight. The heel cap could be BRW.

Cheers

Kim
Author:  TonyKarol [ Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:11 am ]
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I stand (OK sit) corrected ... I had thought of it though, having seen those graining tools before, but figured it would never end up on a guitar .. thats pretty cool.
Author:  Colin S [ Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:44 am ]
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As an apprentice painter and decorator in the 1920s my Uncle was taught (as part of the 7 year apprenticship) to paint any type of woodgrain or stone pattern on a less interesting substrate. As a geologist I look at some of the 'marble' columns he painted at the Savoy Hotel and still have to get close to tell.

Also, a friend of mine stripped the thick lacquer off of his Japanese shotgun, only to find that the nice Walnut grain pattern came off with it.

Not everything is as it seems.

Still, nice little guitar none the less, just do a museum type restoration on the binding and get playing (start with extra-lights)

Colin

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